Connie Whitesell (00:05):

Okay, welcome, welcome. We are currently streaming live on LinkedIn. If you’re watching, please let us know that you’re here with a hello, a happy Tuesday, a please sunshine breakout, and let’s bring some heat back to the upper New York area. Whatever you’d like. If you’re watching the replay, let us know you’re here on replay, and if you’re watching on YouTube or listening on the small Biz one-on-one podcast. Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for being here as well. I do these interviews once or twice a month to support small business owners by providing guest experts in areas that are so needed by entrepreneurs. So we’ve done all kinds of topics so far. Legal, legal considerations for small business owners, mindset support. One of the favorite episodes is about amazing free and low cost library resources, website considerations, making the most of your sales efforts. In fact, Michael, I know you worked with the guests that I had for that.


Denise Haran. Yes, I know you collaborate with her. She was amazing. There’s just a lot of really great topics recently, and we’ll be talking today about the dynamic world of marketing automation, discussing its numerous benefits for small businesses and how it can be implemented really on any budget. So I would love to introduce my guest for today. Michael Roach is an award-winning marketing and communications professional. His experience with both the creative process and visual communications has allowed him to work on numerous creative projects as well as internationally awarded film documentaries. Avid, am I pronouncing that correctly?


A leading audio video editing production software company. Recognize Michael for his content creation skills and storytelling ability. So Michael just has a world of experience and in addition to running his own boutique creative marketing firm, Michael Roach, creative Michael is also past president of the American Marketing Association, the New York Capital Region chapter. And I know Michael, you’re involved in a whole lot of other organizations and networking and bringing people together throughout the capital region. And it’s wonderful to have Michael here as one of his goals is to help elevate the marketing profession and grow the business community. And just like I was mentioning with the networking, and we were just talking about this before going online on live, Michael launched three, not just one networking group, but three professional networking groups that are in the lower mid and upper Hudson Valley areas stretching over 150 miles from, for those of you who know New York State all the way from Westchester through Albany. So Michael, I’m so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for joining me.

Michael Roach (03:14):

Thank you so much, Connie. I’m delighted to be here and excited to have a conversation with you about things related to marketing, but specifically marketing automation, and I’m happy to answer any questions from your audience and just be a resource to folks.

Connie Whitesell (03:32):

Absolutely. Yeah, so as you’re watching this, if you have a question, a comment, please feel free to post that. If this is on replay as well, please post questions. I’ll be keeping an eye on them, I’m sure Michael will as well. And we’ll make sure to get you responses to all of those. So Michael, first of all, I’m just curious what drew you to this type of work to begin with?

Michael Roach (03:57):

Yeah, fantastic question. The thing that drew me to get into this line of work was really just my career experiences. I started out in the creative area as a graphic designer and I enjoyed that because it spoke to my abilities to work on creative concepts from start to finish, or even maybe finishing something that someone started or editing it. Really just taking something visually and just creating a finished product. So I enjoyed that aspect of my career. And I did move from where I started, which was New York City originally where I’m from and got into technology and became a web developer and database developer. And that satisfied another part of myself that I was really enjoying the technical side of things and the will and just the kind of enjoyment in breaking things, but also putting them back together, seeing how things work and seeing when you take something small and then you add another piece to it and another piece to it, then it becomes this gigantic thing that operates like a machine and it can do some wonderful things and transition yet again into marketing. So marketing was the way that I could get the best of both worlds, the creative side, but also the technical side. And so now in my work, I’m helping people with creative solutions, but also solutions that are kind of technical at times and help people solve problems.

Connie Whitesell (05:49):

Fabulous. Now when you say, or when we say marketing automation, what comes to your mind? What do you think of, if somebody was just to say, alright, what is marketing automation in general?

Michael Roach (06:03):

So marketing automation, someone can really think of it as putting together a set of processes that enables someone to do something in less time than if they did everything manually. And in everything that we do and a lot of things that we do on a day-to-day basis, there are a number of steps. And after doing things a number of times it’s like, wait, could this be done cleaner in a faster way or more optimized, more streamlined way? And so automation for marketing will allow us to do more and save time, budget our time more wisely. And there’s tons of marketing processes that we can save our time with and do a lot less repetitive stuff with.

Connie Whitesell (07:00):

And so using all kinds of different types of basically electronic tools, digital tools for that,

Michael Roach (07:11):

Putting these tools that often work together well or integrate with each other. And then sometimes finding tools that don’t exactly work together or weren’t made to work with each other, but finding ways to connect them and utilize some of that data to push that data or information from one place to another so we can process it and use it in a different way and tell us some really creative things or help us arrive at some better business decisions.

Connie Whitesell (07:41):

Fabulous. Are there specific examples that come to mind as you think about both of those sides that you just described? Both sides of the coin?

Michael Roach (07:51):

Yeah, absolutely. So for the coaches, the consultants, the solo entrepreneurs, I can totally relate to it as like I’m a consultant and then sometimes I’m doing coaching and working with people. And in order to get those clients that are going to go on my calendar and schedule, I mean I have to reach out to people and I have to follow up with them. And sometimes follow up can be very difficult, but when you’re trying to find new clients and nurture them, you can utilize some creative ways to do that. So you maybe start initial outreach and it’s something to kind of attract that person. Maybe you know them, maybe you don’t, but you can utilize something creative in the email. Maybe it’s a creative way to say something or maybe use a creative graphic to start that conversation. And then over time, you have to be reminded to go back and nurture that lead or say hello or be a resource and how do you do that in a way that’s a way that you don’t forget, but also keeps them interested, seize sees, maybe tracks a way that they’re interested or that they’ve engaged with that email.


So that’s how you can be that technical or use that technical side to using creative content and then reacting or connecting with that person multiple times and doing it in a streamlined way.

Connie Whitesell (09:36):

Thank you. Yeah, thank you for giving some examples of that. As you’re describing it, I can see how the automation can kick in from the very beginning throughout the entire marketing process and then go into client fulfillment services as well and follow up there. In my mind as you’re talking about this, my mind initially goes to really large marketing platforms that many of us have heard of that a lot of people, the big budgets that they require, the lots of training hours, an annual contract. Some of that can be overwhelming, particularly for, I work primarily with solo business owners. They’re on their own in their business. So when we think about those large marketing platforms, is all of that the big budget, the training hours, the annual contract? Is that necessary to build a really solid automated marketing program?

Michael Roach (10:30):

Absolutely not. I mean, you don’t need huge budgets, and I’m glad you asked that question, and I get that question quite a bit. You don’t need huge budgets in the millions of dollars or thousands of dollars. Sometimes all it takes is a small monthly subscription on one platform to get started, but before even select a tool or a resource or some sort of piece of software, it really requires sitting down with a piece of paper and then starting with some goals. What is it am I looking to achieve? Do I want to reduce some time that it takes for me to get a customer? Do I want to collect feedback or insights from my client? Am I looking to save some time with repetitive tasks as part of my marketing, overall marketing, or do I want to send content to my audience regularly? I mean, it’s just like those kinds of things.


And if you know what those goals are, then you can kind of find a tool that would satisfy some of those goals or would have some of those features. And you don’t need a huge massive budget for that. Sometimes a tool may cost $6 a month, and that may be all you need to get started, and then you can eventually graduate up from there. The other thing I noticed too is that, yes, some of these tools they grow in terms of size and the number of contacts that you may have in a tool. So you’re trying to grow a mailing list or an audience for 500 contacts. It may be free to even get started. And then as you add 500 more and you grow up to a list of maybe four or 5,000, then it’s probably going to cost you more. But by that time, you’ll have thought of ways to monetize what you’re doing and increase your sales in that way.

Connie Whitesell (12:36):

That makes sense. And I think I see with a lot of the larger marketing platforms that there probably are so many services on there that a person especially starting out using automation just doesn’t need and may never need, frankly. Right. Yeah. So you mentioned a couple to start with. What are some other easy ways that small business owners can automate their marketing, especially if they are say on their own in business, a solopreneur, a coach, consultant, that kind of thing?

Michael Roach (13:09):

Yeah, some easy ways would be to look at some of the things that you do on a regular basis, and you almost think of it like doing an audit and looking at some of those things that you do on a regular basis. And that takes up a lot of your time and you feel like there’s some frustration there. I think that’s a good place to start. Or if you look at your week and you say, geez, I do a lot of this one particular task or a set of tasks, and if I were able to shift that in a way and have it done automatically, then I can be doing something else that is more important in my role. Maybe attending networking events or maybe calling up past clients and asking for referrals or testimonials, which is also a very important thing to do as a solo business. So just analyzing some of what you’re doing across the week, and if those repetitive things can be automated in some way, those are a great place to start, especially if those things are potentially revenue generating, because then maybe you could do them at a larger scale too, and that could bring in some increased revenue for you.

Connie Whitesell (14:27):

Yeah, that makes sense. And I don’t want to put you on the spot with recommendations, but I’m curious because I actually just got off of a call a couple of hours ago with a group of coaches, and this question came up. It comes up so frequently with my business owner, clients, people I come into contact with is around CRMs, client relationship management, how to track the contacts, the leads, the follow up, all of that. And it seems like that area, there’s always somebody new coming in. The options are just so numerous. I’m just curious, do you ever make any specific recommendations for that? Where we’re at now? Yeah.

Michael Roach (15:12):

Right. Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that. And yeah, for CRMs, there are some tools that I like MailChimp being one of them, which is also an email marketing tool, but it does have a CRM feature. Another one is Pipedrive that I’ve used with a bunch of clients as a recommendation to them. Pipedrive is an interesting tool because it makes you, it forces you actually to think about, okay, what is my sales process and what are the steps in between? So if you can analyze and think about that, assess it, and sometimes people will think, well, I’ve got 20 or 10 sales steps before I convert that person who’s a stranger to have them become a customer or client. Well, maybe it’s really three steps or maybe it’s five steps. And it helps you, it forces you to think about that. And then once you start to put people in or contacts in, and then you see how they can move or flow between those initial steps to the end steps and you can see where some people never complete or where some folks do complete, it helps you reframe your thinking and see where you can optimize and make things better.


So that’s why I love Pipedrive for that reason. Another tool I would recommend too is HubSpot, because they have some free offerings, not just in terms of automation, but just in terms of overall marketing, where you can literally just get started and connect things like your website to HubSpot. And it’s an easy way to just get started with making some things easier in your life if you need to market your business. So I’m a big fan of HubSpot, and another tool I wanted to mention is ActiveCampaign, which is kind of like the email marketing tool, but allows you to, you can have contacts in this tool, but you can send them campaigns based on certain triggers or things or behaviors that they do if they click on something or if they open a campaign or don’t open a campaign. So it can be pretty helpful for those things.

Connie Whitesell (17:41):

Those are all such great suggestions. And are they all relatively affordable for small businesses,

Michael Roach (17:49):

Would you say? Yeah, I would say, and

Connie Whitesell (17:51):

I know that’s subjective, but

Michael Roach (17:53):

Right. Yes. A lot of them, I would say HubSpot is a great entry point to at least start with using a marketing tool. You could potentially start for free and then grow as your number of contacts grows. MailChimp is another tool where it’s also very affordable and you can start for free by utilizing the tool. And as you grow your contact list, then you would start to pay more. And some advanced features, you may not need them on day one. And in fact, it may be sometimes when you’re utilizing a new tool, there’s a learning curve, and it may just be like the Samurai sword or it’s like the Kano sword when you really need just the butter knife, just a slice, that stick of butter, it may be too much for those advanced features to start. So I think MailChimp and or HubSpot are good tools to start with.

Connie Whitesell (19:02):

That’s great to know. One of my clients recently started utilizing HubSpot, a number of their different features, and she’s been super impressed with this client support that she’s received too in integrating things, which I think is really, really good to know. One thing that I wonder about, I keep seeing Google coming up with more and more apps that I see that in a way can take the place of different paid well and you pay for Google Workplace, but I’m thinking now they have the calendar feature where it seemed like everyone was using Calendly for so long, and I’m sure there are other calendars, and I see Google now has its own schedule or that kind of thing, and I keep seeing more and more apps come up through Google. I’m curious your thoughts on that on Google and their automation technology.

Michael Roach (19:54):

In a lot of ways, I think smaller companies have really innovated or used a lot of innovation to maybe start with a basic principle of a simple calendar and made it cooler, made it more functional, made it so that business owners of all different sizes could use it. And these other companies started these great projects and they became great apps, and now Google is looking at the marketplace and say, whoa, I think we missed out on something here. Let’s try to make our tools even better. And not to say that Google’s tools aren’t great, they are great, but I think there’s still some more that they could do to help business owners, not just large enterprises that need to pay a seat in hundreds of dollars for an email account through Google Workspace, but something that’s affordable for the small business that they can use and is really efficient with their time. So I love Calendly as another tool. I’m glad you mentioned that. There’s some great automations, there’s some great integrations with other tools like Zoom, and I mean that’s even a savings too. The ability to have someone schedule a meeting and then not have to follow up with a Zoom link or a reminder or to text message that person and say, Hey, remember we have something booked. I mean, the steps in the time that it solves and saves you. It’s fantastic. Great tool.

Connie Whitesell (21:43):

Yeah, I think back even five years ago, the way we did things seems so antiquated now, the way we set things up. I remember when I was coaching, zoom wasn’t a thing, and now I just had a brain freeze. Skype. Skype was the big thing. I don’t hear anything about Skype anymore, but it just shows how these things evolve over time. Another area of marketing that I think about with automation, people are always looking to, or I feel like a number of people look for time saving in creating social media posts, in scheduling posts, those kinds of things. And we may be crossing over a little into the AI area of things. And I mean, that’s an automation too, I guess, but so where’s my question going here? So I’m just curious, when it comes to social media marketing, any recommendations there, thoughts on automation that’s really helpful for either the creation or the scheduling?

Michael Roach (22:46):

Yeah, I would say more in the scheduling area of not having to post within the app of scheduling some posts for a later date, especially if those posts are going to and should occur more than once. For example, to promote an event or to ask for sponsors. A great example, I’ve been doing a podcast almost like an audio event with a colleague of mine, and we talk about event marketing and just utilizing social media scheduling tool to let people know that sponsorships are available or telling people to register for an event, but doing it in a different or creative way, letting people know about the sponsors that have sponsored the event. And you never want to just send that out once. You can send that out multiple times and into the future. The other thing that you probably, if you’re running an event like a conference, virtual conference, or even in person, you’re going to have to say a thank you to all the attendees.


You can prepare that in advance and schedule it, of course, check your work more than once. But yeah, you can schedule that in advance so you don’t have to necessarily worry about it and tweak it along the way. Maybe if you wanted to add a new graphic or something. So a tool like Hootsuite, not the least expensive tool out there, but another tool that people overlook is Meta Business Suite, because you can schedule posts into the future. You can also, if you have Facebook and Instagram connected, you can customize your posts for Facebook and Instagram and push them out at the same time or schedule them in advance. So I think that can be very helpful. And there are certain posts too that you’ll want to recycle over time to let people know that, hey, as a solo business, you can book me for a free consultation. You can reach out and ask me questions. Yes, I am available for speaking gigs and speaking opportunities, or to be a guest on a podcast for examples. Absolutely. So yeah, Hootsuite later is another tool, meta Business Suite, and Loom I think is another great tool for something like that. So scheduling for social media,

Connie Whitesell (25:31):

Did you say Loom? LOOM? Yeah.

Michael Roach (25:34):

Luli. LO, yeah. Lou Lee, yeah. L-O-O-M-L-Y.

Connie Whitesell (25:41):

Okay. Alright. Oh, this is so helpful. So many good things to explore here. When you said Loom, that made me think of the service that allows you to record your screen and you speaking and sharing things on screen. But now Zoom allows Zoom clips, which is the same. So if you have an account, you can do that. It’s just keeping up with the technology I feel like could be a full-time job itself. I really commend you for staying on top of all of this.

Michael Roach (26:08):

Yeah, I think the one thing that helps with me, and thank you for that, the one thing that helps me is that I’m curious and willing to try a tool, even if I have a tool that currently works. And a great example of that is Zoom. So yeah, everybody pretty much has a Zoom account at this point, especially since the start of the pandemic. But I started to play with this tool called Uber Conference early on years ago, and it was like a Zoom competitor, but it was a very small company and it offered the same thing, video meetings, video chat, that sort of thing. And then they eventually changed their name to Dialpad. But the one interesting thing about this tool was that it was doing transcription before Zoom did it natively, and it also offered, at least with the paid version, sentiment analysis for your meetings if you had it turned on. So if we were in a Zoom meeting together and we were meeting for the first time or meeting with a client, it can tell me the high points or low points of the meeting where things were really great or where things were maybe not so positive. So that kind of real time transcription, but sentiment analysis was wonderful, and I just took a chance by examining a whole other tool, even though I had Zoom, which could pretty much do some of it what I wanted, but I just wanted to experiment.

Connie Whitesell (27:53):

Is that still around?

Michael Roach (27:55):

Yes, Dialpad is still around, and they have other features that allow you to give you something called sales. It’s either sales enablement or sales realtime sales objection handling. So it will allow you to, when you’re on a meeting with a potential client and the client says, I don’t have time in my calendar or schedule for this, or the budget’s too big or some objection, the system will is supposed to give you a way to kind of combat that objection or give you a response or rebuttal for that.

Connie Whitesell (28:48):

That’s incredible. Yeah, I could see that being so helpful. Wow. Oh my gosh, so many amazing, amazing tools. And I know we could go on forever with the different functions that we do in business. I’m just kind of thinking through the flow. I tell you one technology that has always intimidated me, and it’s one that connects so many different applications together to create an entire process like a Zapier, that kind of

Michael Roach (29:21):


Connie Whitesell (29:22):

Shares me to death, but I feel like it does so many fabulous things. So yeah. What do you think about tools like that and could you share more about them? I think they could be really helpful, and I’m sure it’s because of my lack of knowledge that I’m so nervous about it,

Michael Roach (29:37):

Right? So yeah, Zapier I feel like is say maybe one of the, I know a lot of people utilize it, but I still feel like it’s an underutilized tool to connect things that don’t seem like they should be connected. Maybe as an example, if someone sends you a Facebook business message, then you want to be notified somewhere else, maybe to your phone or to maybe you want to log that in an Excel spreadsheet or Google sheet. You can connect. These things don’t seem like they make sense, but it works for you and you utilize these tools and you want them to work together. And Zapier can be that great connection between the two. And it is not a free tool, but again, it can allow you to do some really creative things that will save you time or remind you about some things, even maybe send an auto response when you maybe are away from whatever it is that you’re doing and you want to just send a quick response to a potential customer. So yeah, there’s just so many different ways you can connect tools together that don’t seem like they make sense, but will help you accomplish a business problem.

Connie Whitesell (31:04):

Yeah, yeah. You just provided some great examples there. You have me thinking another thing, and I mentioned this briefly about ai, everything is so big and it’s changing so quickly. Would you share what you feel are the real distinctions or how they work together even between automation and artificial intelligence?

Michael Roach (31:30):

So I feel like there’s a way to use both technologies. The artificial intelligence in which you’re helping the machine learn something, it’s already learning, but you’re giving it a prompt and asking for a response. And so maybe you could utilize maybe that response that you get from AI or using chat GPT or another one of these tools, and then utilize it as not just copy and paste it, but maybe utilize it as part of your marketing to help you understand more about your customers or lookalike customers. Maybe not the exact customers that you have, but customers that are similar to the ones that you’re looking for. Maybe you want to understand something about people in a Facebook group or a LinkedIn group, and then you maybe give Chachi pt, let’s say as an example, the description of this Facebook group or LinkedIn group, and give me some insights based on what kinds of things should I be writing for this LinkedIn group or Facebook group that will help get me some attention.


Alright, so then once you get some ideas there, then you can find a way to automate that with another tool like Zapier and connecting that to either Facebook business suite to post within that group or maybe connect Zapier to set up posts with imagery that you can put together and you add a step further. Canva, if you love to create visuals, Canva has artificial intelligence in there where you can create text, but you can also generate imagery. And that could be pretty helpful for creating some of those posts that you want to maybe stand out in that Facebook or that LinkedIn group utilizing ai, but also some automation

Connie Whitesell (33:47):

I feel like, well, and they do, they just keep changing and getting better in all of these different aspects. Generating images now, seeing these different platforms like Canva, I love using the AI features in Canva. Actually, I’m enjoying also using the AI in Google email. Now they have the writing tool that helps improve or suggest different ideas for writing emails. That’s so helpful. It feels like it’s popping up everywhere now. Yeah. Do you have a favorite AI platform? Just in general? Like we have chat GBT that I know as 4.0 and others have Gemini and all of that. Is there a particular one that you enjoy using the most?

Michael Roach (34:35):

Yeah, I enjoy using chat GPT, and I’ve played around with another one called Claude, but chat g pt I enjoy using because oftentimes when I’m not in front of my computer, which is a lot, but when I’m on the road, not saying I’m doing this while I’m driving, but when I’m on the road or just away from my pc, I will like to, I’ll think of something, I think of an idea and I want a quick response or a set of answers. So I’ll ask chat PT with the app on my phone, and I know that when I get back to my computer, the response will be there as well, so that I can have this ongoing research, dig of research, whether I go from laptop to my phone or vice versa, which is amazing. I enjoy that a lot

Connie Whitesell (35:38):

Related to that, I found too that in the car, I’ve used this with a microphone, you can actually just have a conversation with chat as you’re going along, like you said, when you’re thinking about something. And then have that all recorded for when you are ready to actually read it and do something with it. It’s just incredible.

Michael Roach (35:57):

Yes, it is definitely transforming how we work and where we work too. We don’t necessarily have to be sitting at a desk and our home office or at a coworking space or in a high rise in some large city. We could be anywhere. We could be on a beach doing work or in our beds, literally waking up and just tapping away and starting our day.

Connie Whitesell (36:29):

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Well, I mean, I know this could be a full day discussion, a weekend, a whole retreat discussion around marketing automation, but is there anything that comes to mind that maybe I haven’t asked you but that you feel is important for small business owners to know around marketing automation?

Michael Roach (36:52):

Yes, definitely. I would say yes, it’s certainly an activity or a process that you would think about for multiple marketing processes, but you can also think about it in terms of campaigns. You can think about it in terms of different channels from email to social media to text message. So yeah, you don’t have to necessarily think of it as just process to process to process or just completing a bunch of processes, but it could be campaign functions, launching a campaign or a social media campaign, reporting on the performance of that campaign, maybe stopping a campaign if it’s spending too much money, you’re not getting those results or getting the hits that you’re looking for on your website or visits, thinking about the different channels that you use and thinking about how much you’re spending on those channels or investing in terms of your time and money. So if automation can save you some time, generate you some leads, reduce some costs in your business, then I’m totally for you experimenting with some of these tools. And you don’t have to go and learn everything. You just need to start small with something. And if you can start with a zero budget, start there and then work your way up.

Connie Whitesell (38:23):

Thank you, Michael. I really appreciate your insights that you provided here. What is the best way to reach you if someone would like to talk with you more about your marketing, your marketing consulting, the marketing automation?

Michael Roach (38:40):

Yeah, thank you for asking. The best way for people to get ahold of me is on LinkedIn, and I’m there under ML Roach, or you can find me if you do a search for Michael Roach, you’ll probably find me. And yeah, I love to connect with folks and just be a resource. And if folks have a question, happy to jump on a Zoom or Dialpad video meeting so we can really tap into what you’re looking to do and see how it can help. And I’m open also to just doing phone calls too. The phone can be very convenient and very useful as well as email, but LinkedIn is a great place to start that conversation.

Connie Whitesell (39:30):

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, thank you for sharing that. And as you were talking about phone calls, it’s so funny, I’ve been speaking with a number of people lately who have been preferring doing those while walking, getting out now that especially for us in the northern states, that we’re finally enjoying some nice weather, getting out and walking while we’re having these conversations on the phone. It’s just such a relief to be doing now. Yeah. So thank you very much for sharing that. And I’ll be sure to include the link to your LinkedIn, and I’ve got your website link I believe as well, that I can include as well in our show notes or comments, anything related to the posts that are going out around this interview.

Michael Roach (40:11):

And if it’s okay, if still folks are thinking, is marketing automation the thing for me, I’d love to maybe in that post, maybe throw in some more examples of some potential recipes that people could use to create these automation sequences.

Connie Whitesell (40:33):

Oh, Michael, absolutely. Yes. Just shoot those over to me and I’ll be sure to include them.

Michael Roach (40:38):


Connie Whitesell (40:39):

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So Michael, thank you so much for being here. I so value your expertise, and Michael’s not kidding when he said he’s happy to jump on a call. Michael is such a helpful giving person, I can’t even tell you. So really encourage people as you’re listening to this and the ideas are generating to be sure to contact Michael to get his perspective on things or help with your own marketing. And thank you to our audience as well, whether you’re here in the LinkedIn, live on YouTube on my podcast. I very much appreciate you being here, and I know you’ve taken away some great nuggets of gold for your own business. So everyone have a great day.

Michael Roach (41:24):

Thank you.